Dan - see you tomorrow around 8:30. Mike, it will be good to meet you.

I'm tied up in the middle of the day but if anything comes up I will be happy to find either of you where you are and trailer you back to Poky after my guests leave around 4 p.m. or so.

Cheers and good luck!

Nice job guys, but how does 8 hours for 130 miles translate into 24 mph instead of 16.8? Time travel? Worm holes?

m

In that case you did it in a little over 8 hours - a very respectable feat, IMO. Mike, especially, should be proud for getting such a large and heavy bike over all of day one. Salude!

"Rolling time" isn't much good for several reasons. First, without knowing how your GPS unit computes stopped time you have no idea what this means (the default on both of my Garmin's in cycle mode was anything less than 3 mph). Second, your software also has an algorithm for computing stopped time that is probably adjustable and may be set to a threshold above zero. In terms of software it also matters how small the averaging intervals are set for speed and time - large delta t yields less accurate results. Third, even if your "rolling times" are right on they are not the same as the amount of time it would take to do the same ride if you just didn't stop. It's much harder to ride 5.5 hours straight than it is just to add up your moving times over an 8+ hour period. By the "rolling time" standard every racer in Vegas to Reno, the Baja, the Tour of France, etc., should be entitled to subtract hours from their time - which, of course, they are not. The good news for me would be that by this standard I did all of Utah to Wallace last year in about 20 hours. The bad news is that there is no way I could have done it without stopping for gas, potty, and sometimes just plain because I was whipped. Fatigue matters in endurance sports. Even on the 130 mile stretch you did it makes a big difference if you stop for a few minutes here and there to relieve the pump in your forearms, shoulders and quads. I can see stopping the timer for road construction, a forest fire or something like that, but not just adding up all of the moving time as a general method of claimed time.

I think that you are a strong rider and did a great ride and should be proud of what you accomplished. But this business of "rolling time" I'm not so sure about. My "rolling time" over the same stretch last week was significantly less than my actual time and some of it was due to things (cattle) beyond my control. But that's just my tough luck. It all counts.

Cheers, amigo

m

No Dan, rolling time is simply not actual time and I am surprised that a person of your ability and skill would continue to press this claim. It's sandbagging - and you can protest all you want but it's an inaccurate description of what it takes to get through the first day.

The average you cite doesn't even come our exactly right with a calculator so who knows what's up with your GPS. Since you did not turn on your SPOT that day (or if you did I didn't get the messages) there is no independent way to check your GPS. You left Black Canyon at around 10:40 and showed up at my house sometime after 7 p.m. Assuming that it took you 20 minutes to get to the actual start that's 8 hours for 130 miles and that's the only number that 99% of the world cares about racer or not. Especially Tour of Idaho riders who are concerned about what time they are going to get here according to their watch, not their "rolling time - which means little if you "roll" into town at 2 a.m.

Further, most Tour riders do not have had the advantage of having ridden the route half a dozen or so times before resorting to adding up their "rolling times" to arrive at a claimed time. Even eight hours is going to seem like a lot to most of them just like it did for both of us the first time we did it. That's why when I publish times they are the actual times it took me to ride the trail. I do not turn my timer off for gas, breaks or anything else.

I believe that you have the ability to do Day 1 in about the time that you claim - but that's different from actually having done it. But - if you are convinced that rolling and actual times are the same, it's sure enough easy to find out. Same for the entire T1 and for T2. The routes are well-defined and there is no waiting in line.

m

Hola Dan.

I did read your posts. Scratched my head and read them again, and then again just to make sure that I wasn't missing some subtle attempt at humor, a point beyond my grasp, etc.

Whether or not you conjured up an equation and stuck an equal logical operator between "rolling" and "actual" you certainly implied (stated, actually) that rolling time is the time that matters most. In my opinion you are out on a limb on that. The time that matters is how much time it takes. And I am surprised that a person who has one of the highest ethical standards I've ever met and is one of the best riders in a talent-laden area would come up with something like this that just doesn't make a lot of sense. Did Rob swap toddy again for the iced coffee at Mocha? The last time that happened I rewrote the Declaration of Independence, put rap beats behind it and shook my butt for three days.

Dude, it's just competition. Even though what we do isn't a sanctioned race we, at some level, compete when we go out and ride these trails as fast as we can. I am extremely happy that you've gotten to the point that I have to worry about you planting that KTM right in my bum if I don't stay on the gas. You've even smoked me a time or too on trails you knew pretty well and I never mind being sandbagged by a friend. Indeed, I view it as a complement. But with success comes responsibility. Now that you are out front in this activity we basically invented there is an extra burden to be very careful about what you say.

If, for instance, I tell someone that T1 day 1 is hard, requires a dirt bike, and will take 8 - 10 hours - and they do it on 4 hours on a KLR650 - then in their case I was wrong and good for them. But if I tell them that it's a casual 5.5 hour trail ride and big bikes are no problem and they go get thumped - then I am a sandbagging jerk. I'd rather just be wrong. And the data we have for T1D1 indicates that most folks on dual sports have a lot of trouble (Mike's KLX is a dual sport more heavily biased toward dirt than most) and that it takes 8 hours or more. The reason you and I can do this trail pretty fast has a lot to do with experience with it. It will be a different experience for someone riding it for the first time, without a guide on a large, heavily-loaded bike.

If, however, you want to conduct the experiment I proposed I will be more than happy to drive the shuttle. And if you prove your point I'll be waiting at the flagpole to shake your hand.

Then, of course, I'll be back on the same trail the next day.... :)

Now that's funny. Good one!

Or if it's not, I overestimated you.

Greetings all! I had a great time riding on Friday.

Martin, thanks for your advice and this great website as well as the foresight to link this all together in what appears to be a great ride (day 1 was so much fun, I'm assuming the rest will be no less)! I appreciate you making it easy for my guides Dan and Justin to get to the starting point.

Dan, thank for the invite and for taking the time so I could do a nice recon ride for some of my friends that are interested in doing it as well. I'm grateful for you taking me back to my truck near Jenkins Hollow at the end of the day as well.

Justin, thanks for keeping Dan in line and out of trouble for the day.

For me, the big part of going was to find out if my skills were up to the ride. I've never cared much for trailering my bike since it can be a problem logistically. I wanted to find out if I'd be able to leave my house on my bike, do T1, and then ride back home. For day 1 of T1, I did truck my bike to the start. I'd gone one tooth smaller on my countershaft sprocket and had gone with a fresh IRC trials tire for the tire. With the bike set up as it was, 45mph was comfortable, but at 50+ mph, it was really wound up. Not how I'd want to ride the 130 miles to the start. Although the set up was fun for the day, it was like cheating, next time I'd run stock gearing. Stock gearing on my bike, a DRZ400E, would have been just fine. And in fact, better on the dirt road sections were the guys were going so slow waiting for me.

No complaints about the tire at all. It was perfect. Again, I'd prefer to just ride from my house, so I'd probably just stick with my usual tire, a Dunlop 606.

With this set up, I could then ride home from northern ID over a couple of days and not worry about shuttling.

However, I'd probably go one size bigger in a a bike if I was riding home from the north part of T1. My 650 would be more appropriate for that. It might be a little work in a couple of spots on T1/Day1, but nothing that would be too bad.

I think that Martin's advice about going with a smaller bike is appropriate. With my 400, it was just pure fun. With my 650, I might have a few minutes of work during the day.

As I rode a friend's CRF450X yesterday for a couple of miles, I was curious about different bike weights. I think it is somewhere here on the forum where it was recommended that something under 275# would be most appropriate ( I could be imagining that I read it here, since I can't find it now).

I was kind of the middle weight of the group, with a dry weight of 262#. Add my turn signals that were added and there goes 3-4 more#.

Dan had the lightest bike. I think the KTM 525EXC dry specs for it are right about 250#.

Justin was on the heavy bike of the group, a Honda XR650R, with a claimed dry weight of 277#.

Since none of us had any moments of stress on the ride, I think that the lighter bikes are definitely the most fun way to go!

As far as dirt bikes vs. dual sports on the ride. I think this could be a little cloudy trying to define which bike is what. A riding friend of mine in Jackson, WY. bought a new bike last year. It was sold as a "dual sport". Came complete with a title to license it for riding on the street. It was a KTM 450EXC. After what I rode the other day, I think that bike would be an excellent choice for this ride, even though it is a dual sport.

I happened to throw some turn signals and a mirror on my bike so the local police don't pull me over when I'm riding to the trail head from my house. I guess, by definition, I might have a dual sport bike now, even though the title say that it is "for off road use only". Someday I'll get around to making it legitimate.

I have another bike in the garage that would be perfect on Day 1 as well. It is a Yamaha XT225. It is street legal. It is what my wife rides. On occasion, she has let me borrow it. I've taken it places that were a little challenging on my 400, but because of the low seat height, it is pretty hard to get in much trouble. Between being able to go so slow and always get 2 feet flat on the ground, it would be my first choice of a bike for a difficult trail ride, something like 5 Miles of Hell trail.

That being said, I wouldn't want my wife getting anywhere near Oxford Basin on this 225. She just doesn't have the skill on any bike. Never will either. Nothing wrong with that.

I'd not want to attempt this section on something in the weight class such as a KLR. I'm sure it could be done, by the right rider, but I'm done trying to wrestle big bike in and out of places where they were never intended to be. However, it still comes down to the rider. Looking back at a ride we did a few years ago. People were having fits getting up a hill. Nobody could make it. Not even the guys on a 650. What bike finally came along and made it up without any problem? A BMW 1200 HP2. I guess if you can place 4th in the Paris-Dakar and win the Baja 1000, you must have some skills...

I'll get some photos put up somewhere on the web, along with my SPOT track and will post the link here. I'd have them up by now, but lost everything after 1538 hours on Friday. I left the SPOT on all night in my truck, and figured that nobody would care to see 8 hours of tracking from my driveway. When I deleted those, I somehow also deleted part of our ride track as well. I know from past experience, that SPOT can retrieve those for me if they want. I'm just probably not a huge priority for them. If not, I'll just post what I have, but will put a link here.

Thanks again Martin for the site, and the Tour of Idaho!

Mike

Hey Martin,

It was good to meet you when Mark, Rick and I came thru Poky.

Mark has started the ride report:http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=612543

It is also on bigdogadventures.com

Take care

Scott

The maps and links on our T2 page have been updated. Now the format for maps are the same on both the T2 and T2 pages.

Whoa! That is some story. I hope that you were able to complete you ride with no further misadventures.

Salude!